--- In just-a-minute@..., "Bobby" <bobbyshaddoe3004@...> wrote:
>
> This is something that no doubt has fandom divided regarding the appreciation of Kenneth Williams. Kenneth had a style of playing the game that often played on his strengths as a comedic performer. No one on the show was quite like Kenneth. But often his style tended to consist on putting on funny voices or stretching words out, and adding several syllables into one syllable words. In addition, he just seemed to be given free reign to act like a immature brat, often screaming and bullying his fellow panelists (usually the ladies), and then turns around and does the exact opposite, often denying that he would ever stoop to such behavior mere moments after finishing one of his disgraceful tirades. On top of that, he would often decry and condemn other panelists for trying to do what he does on a regular basis, claiming that he never does the very thing he's challenging them on. And it reached an apex largely during the 70s but moreso in the 80s when Ian Messiter, Nicholas Parsons, and even the producers of the show began to cater to this outrageous behavior, or even feed his overinflated ego.
>
> something else that I tended to notice was a change of opinion regarding his attitude towards Peter Jones that shifted from the early 70's to the 1980's. in the 70's it often seemed like Kenneth and Peter were rivals, largely because Peter was the first to openly challenge Kenneth's mannerisms and his outrageous behavior. this was of course fairly early in Peter Jones' involvement on the program, and there always seemed to be a sense of one upmanship between them, whenever Peter tried to start speaking on something Kenneth would be down on him like a ton of bricks, and Peter would try to get his own back (sometimes not always succeeding). but I recall one episode when Peter had managed to get into the lead for the first time since coming onto the program, and he commented that Kenneth seemed to be siding with Clement against him just because he happened to be in the lead for the first time in 8 weeks. and then two subjects later, Kenneth managed to take the lead and at the end of the round, Kenneth pretty much let Peter have it saying 'So there you are Peter Jones!' even though, as Nicholas pointed out, he had been in direct competition with Clement Freud in the previous round, and Kenneth replied 'because he was so smug when he was four in the lead, so smug. just sitting there like a cat with the cream'. Kenneth was also one to always jump on Peter and tell him to shut up if he's got nothing to say on a subject.
>
> But in the 80's, Kenneth seemed more complimentary towards Peter. one occasion when Peter said he wished he could speak more fluently and elegantly, Kenneth challenged on deviation, saying that Peter Jones already speaks quite fluently and elegantly. And goes on to heap praise upon praise on him, and this actually manages to get Kenneth the subject.
>
> still, he did bring a sense of drama to the program, a sense that the competition really did matter. i just didn't think it was right that he seemed to be treated like the Just a Minute Prima Donna. there's no denying Kenneth's talent, I've listened to plenty of episodes of Round the Horne to know he is exceptionally gifted, I've seen plenty of clips of talk show segments to know he is very intelligent. but to cater to his vanity and his ego in such a manner seems to go against what Just a Minute is all about, in that it is a team effort, so to allow Kenneth to hog the spotlight or the limelight all the time just didn't seem appropriate in my view.
>
That is true. Entertainment is one of the key elements for a show like JAM, and Kenneth was certainly very entertaining. His presence certainly did lift the proceedings up especially when there would be a rather uninteresting guest panelist. However, there were plenty of equally entertaining guests that appeared on the panel at times with Kenneth, and yet he was still allowed free reign to ride roughshot over people regardless. In fact, there was one occasion when Kenneth`s behavior caused a female guest to run out of the show in the middle of a recording, in absolute tears, and refused to go back because she didnt want to be subjected to Kenneth`s anti feminist tirades. I believe the lady in question was Nyree Dawn Porter. And there are also entrees in Kenneth's own journal where he personally states quite categorically of the times he behaved disgracefully on Just a Minute. His intention may have been to be entertaining, but even the late Mr. Williams himself was aware of those moments when he crossed the line. |
--- In just-a-minute@..., Robert Torres <bobbyshaddoe3004@...> wrote:
>
> That is true. Entertainment is one of the key elements for a show like JAM, and Kenneth was certainly very entertaining. His presence certainly did lift the proceedings up especially when there would be a rather uninteresting guest panelist.
>
> However, there were plenty of equally entertaining guests that appeared on the panel at times with Kenneth, and yet he was still allowed free reign to ride roughshot over people regardless. In fact, there was one occasion when Kenneth`s behavior caused a female guest to run out of the show in the middle of a recording, in absolute tears, and refused to go back because she didnt want to be subjected to Kenneth`s anti feminist tirades. I believe the lady in question was Nyree Dawn Porter.
>
> And there are also entrees in Kenneth's own journal where he personally states quite categorically of the times he behaved disgracefully on Just a Minute. His intention may have been to be entertaining, but even the late Mr. Williams himself was aware of those moments when he crossed the line.
>
I have heard this story before and there are two things that cause me to question the accuracy of it.
Firstly, Nyree Dawn Porter was born and grew up in a country infamous for the chauvinism of its male population.
Secondly, by the time she was invited onto JAM, she had been more than 10 years in a profession where outrageous behaviour is commonplace.
If this story is true, I prefer to believe that poor Nyree finding herself out of her depth chose to beat a retreat and cover it using an over-dramatic exit.
Having said that, of all the actresses appearing on tv at that time, I did find her the most bed-worthy.
From: just-a-minute@...
[mailto:just-a-minute@...] On Behalf Of Robert Torres
Sent: 25 October 2010 17:28
To: just-a-minute@...
Subject: Re: [just-a-minute] Re: The Carte Blanche of Kenneth Williams
That is true. Entertainment is one of the key elements for a show like JAM, and Kenneth was certainly very entertaining. His presence certainly did lift the proceedings up especially when there would be a rather uninteresting guest panelist.
However, there were plenty of equally entertaining guests that appeared on the panel at times with Kenneth, and yet he was still allowed free reign to ride roughshot over people regardless. In fact, there was one occasion when Kenneth`s behavior caused a female guest to run out of the show in the middle of a recording, in absolute tears, and refused to go back because she didnt want to be subjected to Kenneth`s anti feminist tirades. I believe the lady in question was Nyree Dawn Porter.
And there are also entrees in Kenneth's own journal where he personally states quite categorically of the times he behaved disgracefully on Just a Minute. His intention may have been to be entertaining, but even the late Mr. Williams himself was aware of those moments when he crossed the line. |
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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> I think it's pretty clear that it was 90% an act put on for entertainment
I don't think one can necessarily take the pathological self-loathing which his diaries existed to express on face value as regards his JAM tirades. I think it's pretty clear that it was 90% an act put on for entertainment. And if they stuck me for that many years with the terminally untalented yet perpetually auditioning Nicholas Parsons, I think I could be excused the odd venting of rage.
--- In just-a-minute@..., Robert Torres <bobbyshaddoe3004@...> wrote:
>
> That is true. Entertainment is one of the key elements for a show like JAM, and Kenneth was certainly very entertaining. His presence certainly did lift the proceedings up especially when there would be a rather uninteresting guest panelist.
>
> However, there were plenty of equally entertaining guests that appeared on the panel at times with Kenneth, and yet he was still allowed free reign to ride roughshot over people regardless. In fact, there was one occasion when Kenneth`s behavior caused a female guest to run out of the show in the middle of a recording, in absolute tears, and refused to go back because she didnt want to be subjected to Kenneth`s anti feminist tirades. I believe the lady in question was Nyree Dawn Porter.
>
> And there are also entrees in Kenneth's own journal where he personally states quite categorically of the times he behaved disgracefully on Just a Minute. His intention may have been to be entertaining, but even the late Mr. Williams himself was aware of those moments when he crossed the line.
>
Excellent point. but sometimes, at least in my experience, its often very difficult to tell where the fine line is between joking around and being serious. cuz i've met some people who have told some pretty hard hitting things about themselves and people they know, only for them to turn around and say they were just joking around. and I and many others are left not laughing at all, and just look on with utter contempt that someone who just told us something like 'oh my best friend was killed by a serial killer' or that they were 'molested by their step parents' is telling me that it was all a joke. i mean, I enjoy a good laugh as much as the next person, but there are some things that you just don't joke about. granted, there were plenty of times Kenneth actually did make it known that what he was doing at the moment was just in the spirit of fun, especially after a particular tirade against someone (particularly the chairman), that did bring a smile to my face. largely cuz it did reinforce or at least reminded the listeners that the show is meant to be entertaining. --- On Wed, 10/27/10, Steve <zedro@...> wrote:
|
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bobby" <bobbyshaddoe3004@...>
To: <just-a-minute@...>
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 1:54 AM
Subject: [just-a-minute] The Carte Blanche of Kenneth Williams
> This is something that no doubt has fandom divided regarding the
appreciation of Kenneth Williams. Kenneth had a style of playing the game
that often played on his strengths as a comedic performer. No one on the
show was quite like Kenneth. But often his style tended to consist on
putting on funny voices or stretching words out, and adding several
syllables into one syllable words. In addition, he just seemed to be given
free reign to act like a immature brat, often screaming and bullying his
fellow panelists (usually the ladies), and then turns around and does the
exact opposite, often denying that he would ever stoop to such behavior mere
moments after finishing one of his disgraceful tirades. On top of that, he
would often decry and condemn other panelists for trying to do what he does
on a regular basis, claiming that he never does the very thing he's
challenging them on. And it reached an apex largely during the 70s but
moreso in the 80s when Ian Messiter, Nicholas Parsons, and even the
producers of the show began to cater to this outrageous behavior, or even
feed his overinflated ego.
>
> something else that I tended to notice was a change of opinion regarding
his attitude towards Peter Jones that shifted from the early 70's to the
1980's. in the 70's it often seemed like Kenneth and Peter were rivals,
largely because Peter was the first to openly challenge Kenneth's mannerisms
and his outrageous behavior. this was of course fairly early in Peter
Jones' involvement on the program, and there always seemed to be a sense of
one upmanship between them, whenever Peter tried to start speaking on
something Kenneth would be down on him like a ton of bricks, and Peter would
try to get his own back (sometimes not always succeeding). but I recall one
episode when Peter had managed to get into the lead for the first time since
coming onto the program, and he commented that Kenneth seemed to be siding
with Clement against him just because he happened to be in the lead for the
first time in 8 weeks. and then two subjects later, Kenneth managed to take
the lead and at the end of the round, Kenneth pretty much let Peter have it
saying 'So there you are Peter Jones!' even though, as Nicholas pointed
out, he had been in direct competition with Clement Freud in the previous
round, and Kenneth replied 'because he was so smug when he was four in the
lead, so smug. just sitting there like a cat with the cream'. Kenneth was
also one to always jump on Peter and tell him to shut up if he's got nothing
to say on a subject.
>
> But in the 80's, Kenneth seemed more complimentary towards Peter. one
occasion when Peter said he wished he could speak more fluently and
elegantly, Kenneth challenged on deviation, saying that Peter Jones already
speaks quite fluently and elegantly. And goes on to heap praise upon praise
on him, and this actually manages to get Kenneth the subject.
>
> still, he did bring a sense of drama to the program, a sense that the
competition really did matter. i just didn't think it was right that he
seemed to be treated like the Just a Minute Prima Donna. there's no denying
Kenneth's talent, I've listened to plenty of episodes of Round the Horne to
know he is exceptionally gifted, I've seen plenty of clips of talk show
segments to know he is very intelligent. but to cater to his vanity and his
ego in such a manner seems to go against what Just a Minute is all about, in
that it is a team effort, so to allow Kenneth to hog the spotlight or the
limelight all the time just didn't seem appropriate in my view.
I have heard this story before and there are two things that cause me to question the accuracy of it.
Firstly, Nyree Dawn Porter was born and grew up in a country infamous for the chauvinism of its male population.
Secondly, by the time she was invited onto JAM, she had been more than 10 years in a profession where outrageous behaviour is commonplace.
Hence, I would have expected her to either ignore Ken’s jibes or to counter them with a suitably cutting riposte.
If this story is true, I prefer to believe that poor Nyree finding herself out of her depth chose to beat a retreat and cover it using an over-dramatic exit.
Having said that, of all the actresses appearing on tv at that time, I did find her the most bedworthy.
From: just-a-minute@...
[mailto:just-a-minute@...] On Behalf Of Robert Torres
Sent: 25 October 2010 17:28
To: just-a-minute@...
Subject: Re: [just-a-minute] Re: The Carte Blanche of Kenneth Williams
That is true. Entertainment is one of the key elements for a show like JAM, and Kenneth was certainly very entertaining. His presence certainly did lift the proceedings up especially when there would be a rather uninteresting guest panelist.
However, there were plenty of equally entertaining guests that appeared on the panel at times with Kenneth, and yet he was still allowed free reign to ride roughshot over people regardless. In fact, there was one occasion when Kenneth`s behavior caused a female guest to run out of the show in the middle of a recording, in absolute tears, and refused to go back because she didnt want to be subjected to Kenneth`s anti feminist tirades. I believe the lady in question was Nyree Dawn Porter.
And there are also entrees in Kenneth's own journal where he personally states quite categorically of the times he behaved disgracefully on Just a Minute. His intention may have been to be entertaining, but even the late Mr. Williams himself was aware of those moments when he crossed the line. |
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3222 - Release Date: 10/27/10
On Fri Oct 29th, 2010 10:46 AM EDT Clitheroe Kid wrote:
>I feel I have to put in my 2 cents worth here, for what it's worth...
>
>Kenneth was a consumate professional, not the egocentric maniac you
>describe. What you haven't allowed for is that the show was controlled by
>the Producer, not by Kenneth. And if you stop to think about it for a
>moment, you'll realise that whatever Kenneth might do or say in the studio
>would never make it onto the broadcast tape if the Producer didn't want it
>there.
>
>In point of fact, as I've mentioned before - and others have too - Kenneth
>had an arrangement with the Producer, whereby if the latter felt that the
>show was too flat he would give Kenneth a sign to raise the ante, and
>Kenneth would go into one of his rants. The Producer would then give Kenneth
>another sign, and he would shut up again.
>
>It was a measure of Kenneth's ability, that he could raise the show whenever
>it needed it, even if this production trick did have the effect of making
>him look a bit schizophrenic. He would be improvising off-the-cuff, so he
>might well attack Peter Jones in one edition, only to praise him the
>following week.
>
>You should realise, too, that this is comedy. The panellists were free to
>say anything that would get a laugh; being dull was the only way of giving
>offence. Kenneth didn't have to believe in what he was saying, and it didn't
>have to be true. It was all done in the cause of achieving a comic effect.
>
>It wouldn't be fair to expect consistency. The panel were trying to
>entertain. It wasn't a court of law, and their remarks weren't given under
>oath. Paul Merton's flights of surreal fantasy in later years were plainly
>only flights of fancy. Kenneth's were not so obviously made up. But you're
>mistaking Kenneth as being serious, when he was merely trying to be funny.
>
>He knew how to get the audience going, and how to work them up to fever
>pitch, and no one else on the panel could do that - then or now. And Kenneth
>could make *any* subject funny...
>
>Clitheroe Kid
>
>Stephen Poppitt & Sandra Skuse
>Jimmy Clitheroe: The Kid Himself
>http://www.JimmyClitheroe.co.uk
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bobby" <bobbyshaddoe3004@...>
>To: <just-a-minute@...>
>Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 1:54 AM
>Subject: [just-a-minute] The Carte Blanche of Kenneth Williams
>
>
>> This is something that no doubt has fandom divided regarding the
>appreciation of Kenneth Williams. Kenneth had a style of playing the game
>that often played on his strengths as a comedic performer. No one on the
>show was quite like Kenneth. But often his style tended to consist on
>putting on funny voices or stretching words out, and adding several
>syllables into one syllable words. In addition, he just seemed to be given
>free reign to act like a immature brat, often screaming and bullying his
>fellow panelists (usually the ladies), and then turns around and does the
>exact opposite, often denying that he would ever stoop to such behavior mere
>moments after finishing one of his disgraceful tirades. On top of that, he
>would often decry and condemn other panelists for trying to do what he does
>on a regular basis, claiming that he never does the very thing he's
>challenging them on. And it reached an apex largely during the 70s but
>moreso in the 80s when Ian Messiter, Nicholas Parsons, and even the
>producers of the show began to cater to this outrageous behavior, or even
>feed his overinflated ego.
>>
>> something else that I tended to notice was a change of opinion regarding
>his attitude towards Peter Jones that shifted from the early 70's to the
>1980's. in the 70's it often seemed like Kenneth and Peter were rivals,
>largely because Peter was the first to openly challenge Kenneth's mannerisms
>and his outrageous behavior. this was of course fairly early in Peter
>Jones' involvement on the program, and there always seemed to be a sense of
>one upmanship between them, whenever Peter tried to start speaking on
>something Kenneth would be down on him like a ton of bricks, and Peter would
>try to get his own back (sometimes not always succeeding). but I recall one
>episode when Peter had managed to get into the lead for the first time since
>coming onto the program, and he commented that Kenneth seemed to be siding
>with Clement against him just because he happened to be in the lead for the
>first time in 8 weeks. and then two subjects later, Kenneth managed to take
>the lead and at the end of the round, Kenneth pretty much let Peter have it
>saying 'So there you are Peter Jones!' even though, as Nicholas pointed
>out, he had been in direct competition with Clement Freud in the previous
>round, and Kenneth replied 'because he was so smug when he was four in the
>lead, so smug. just sitting there like a cat with the cream'. Kenneth was
>also one to always jump on Peter and tell him to shut up if he's got nothing
>to say on a subject.
>>
>> But in the 80's, Kenneth seemed more complimentary towards Peter. one
>occasion when Peter said he wished he could speak more fluently and
>elegantly, Kenneth challenged on deviation, saying that Peter Jones already
>speaks quite fluently and elegantly. And goes on to heap praise upon praise
>on him, and this actually manages to get Kenneth the subject.
>>
>> still, he did bring a sense of drama to the program, a sense that the
>competition really did matter. i just didn't think it was right that he
>seemed to be treated like the Just a Minute Prima Donna. there's no denying
>Kenneth's talent, I've listened to plenty of episodes of Round the Horne to
>know he is exceptionally gifted, I've seen plenty of clips of talk show
>segments to know he is very intelligent. but to cater to his vanity and his
>ego in such a manner seems to go against what Just a Minute is all about, in
>that it is a team effort, so to allow Kenneth to hog the spotlight or the
>limelight all the time just didn't seem appropriate in my view.
>
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