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<<<<   6155   >>>>

Topic: Nic's errors league table

Message 1 / 6
Clitheroe KidOct 26, 2011
 
 
People, people, people...!

Can we please stop this unfair treatment of Nicholas Parsons.
 
Espen, being foreign, has never been to a recording of the show. This makes his misunderstanding of the show reasonable. But I can't make up my mind whether those of you who are egging him on in his Nick-baiting are simply being humorous?
 
Can I put it on record, in the hope of ending this misunderstanding, that this is an EDITED show.
 
I don't think those of you who have never been to a radio recording have any idea what that means.
 
This show runs 28 minutes on-air, but the recordings can last as much as 45 minutes. The producer edits the tape down to 28 minutes, but the structure of the show, i.e. the fact that each round lasts one minute, makes unusual demands on an editor. It is almost impossible to edit the actual one minute rounds; so all the editing is focussed on the between-rounds sections, and on the challenges during a round.
 
This means that everything the panellists say gets broadcast verbatim, and the editing concentrates on Nicholas Parsons's contributions as chairman. So it's Nick's remarks which are the most prone to being edited-out.
 
In order to fit, exactly, the 28 minute timeslot, a great deal of the inter-round chat gets edited out, i.e. removed at the editing stage. Because the editor is under pressure to include the one-minute rounds in their entirety, the explanations offfered by the chairman, for his decisions, are prone to be lost. The result is that, many a time, what the listener hears at home is only Nick's actual decision, not the reasons for it, and often not the chat between Nick and the panellists.
 
Even when it's possible to include some of the discussion relating to a challenge, the editing tends to favour the panellist, who is giving reasons why he buzzed; whereas Nick's contributions are often omitted, due to lack of air-time.
 
Hence, the fact that Nick sometimes sounds a complete lemon is often the fault of an unskilled producer, in cutting out Nick's reasons. The skill - or, rather, lack of it - in the editing can make Nick sound an idiot, even though the editing is intended to help keep the show flowing. There were times in the 1990s when the editing was particularly poor, but nowadays the editor makes greater efforts to give some intelligability to Nick's remarks.
 
In radio, the producer acts as the post-production editor. The golden age of the 1970s had producers such as David Hatch, who knew what they were doing. In later years, less experienced producers have been used. The name of the producer gives a clue as to how good or bad the editing on a particular broadcast is going to be. I flinch when certain producers are credited on 'Just A Minute'. I am not going to be invidious, and actually name any - but you all know who I mean, I'm sure.
 
But you are blaming Nick for faults in the editing of the shows, something which is beyond his control.

 

To: just-a-minute@...
From: espen.kromke@...
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:27:16 +0200
Subject: Re: [just-a-minute] Deflation? Nic's errors league table

My impression is that Nic's repetition errors have become fewer in the last few years.

I totally agree - I think the difference between Nic during the 2000s versus Nic during the 1990s is stellar, no less. Some of the judgements during the 90s are just horribly bad. It's like he didn't pay attention at all. It sounds like he basically accepted every challenge, especially from the regulars, and changed his mind along the way.

As a matter of fact I think we have to get to this side of the new millennium shift before he's become fairly good.
He's always been charming though. :)
 
 

 
<<<<   6156   >>>>

Topic: Re: Nic's errors league table

Message 2 / 6
Dave BOct 26, 2011
 
 
We just want to chat about Just A Minute online, with listeners from across the world, and, therefore, if we can get a thread going, its a success.........................

Lee Wong


From: Clitheroe Kid <clitheroekid@...>
To: just-a-minute@...
Sent: Wednesday, 26 October 2011 9:44 PM
Subject: [just-a-minute] Nic's errors league table

 
People, people, people...!

Can we please stop this unfair treatment of Nicholas Parsons.
 
Espen, being foreign, has never been to a recording of the show. This makes his misunderstanding of the show reasonable. But I can't make up my mind whether those of you who are egging him on in his Nick-baiting are simply being humorous?
 
Can I put it on record, in the hope of ending this misunderstanding, that this is an EDITED show.
 
I don't think those of you who have never been to a radio recording have any idea what that means.
 
This show runs 28 minutes on-air, but the recordings can last as much as 45 minutes. The producer edits the tape down to 28 minutes, but the structure of the show, i.e. the fact that each round lasts one minute, makes unusual demands on an editor. It is almost impossible to edit the actual one minute rounds; so all the editing is focussed on the between-rounds sections, and on the challenges during a round.
 
This means that everything the panellists say gets broadcast verbatim, and the editing concentrates on Nicholas Parsons's contributions as chairman. So it's Nick's remarks which are the most prone to being edited-out.
 
In order to fit, exactly, the 28 minute timeslot, a great deal of the inter-round chat gets edited out, i.e. removed at the editing stage. Because the editor is under pressure to include the one-minute rounds in their entirety, the explanations offfered by the chairman, for his decisions, are prone to be lost. The result is that, many a time, what the listener hears at home is only Nick's actual decision, not the reasons for it, and often not the chat between Nick and the panellists.
 
Even when it's possible to include some of the discussion relating to a challenge, the editing tends to favour the panellist, who is giving reasons why he buzzed; whereas Nick's contributions are often omitted, due to lack of air-time.
 
Hence, the fact that Nick sometimes sounds a complete lemon is often the fault of an unskilled producer, in cutting out Nick's reasons. The skill - or, rather, lack of it - in the editing can make Nick sound an idiot, even though the editing is intended to help keep the show flowing. There were times in the 1990s when the editing was particularly poor, but nowadays the editor makes greater efforts to give some intelligability to Nick's remarks.
 
In radio, the producer acts as the post-production editor. The golden age of the 1970s had producers such as David Hatch, who knew what they were doing. In later years, less experienced producers have been used. The name of the producer gives a clue as to how good or bad the editing on a particular broadcast is going to be. I flinch when certain producers are credited on 'Just A Minute'. I am not going to be invidious, and actually name any - but you all know who I mean, I'm sure.
 
But you are blaming Nick for faults in the editing of the shows, something which is beyond his control.

 

To: just-a-minute@...
From: espen.kromke@...
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:27:16 +0200
Subject: Re: [just-a-minute] Deflation? Nic's errors league table

My impression is that Nic's repetition errors have become fewer in the last few years.

I totally agree - I think the difference between Nic during the 2000s versus Nic during the 1990s is stellar, no less. Some of the judgements during the 90s are just horribly bad. It's like he didn't pay attention at all. It sounds like he basically accepted every challenge, especially from the regulars, and changed his mind along the way.

As a matter of fact I think we have to get to this side of the new millennium shift before he's become fairly good.
He's always been charming though. :)
 
 



 
<<<<   6157   >>>>

Topic: Re: Nic's errors league table

Message 3 / 6
kj.naughtonOct 27, 2011
 
 
Hi all,

I disagree.

I enjoy the discussions about how the show has changed over the years and part of that is how Nicholas has chaired it. But I remember, not too long ago, that we had repeated posts questioning his mental faculties because of one percieved mistake or inconsistency or another. That sort of thing is just not on and, even if it got lots of discussion going, I couldn't count that as a success. I do remember making similar points at the time.

It is, IMHO, clearly NOT the case that the "success" of a thread, however it is measured, depends on the number of posts it receives. It is, surely, more to do with the content. There are things that one should be wary of discussing in the polite company of strangers, and I count the members of this group as just that.

For what it's worth, Clitheroe Kid makes extremely valid points and I agree with the huge majority of what they said. The ONLY way of making a true comparison on that sort of question is by comparing two unedited/live recordings. Comparing heavily edited broadcasts introduces too many sources of bias.

I have never been to a JaM recording, but I have been to six "Clue" recordings and I can say with some certainty that the live and broadcast versions are strikingly different. In Clue a "show" is recorded, then there's a break, then a second "show" is recorded. It's even been the case that rounds from one "show" have been broadcast as part of the other "show". So you're forced into the position of not knowing whether you're listening to an edited live recording or what's effectively a compilation.

FWIW, the part of Clitheroe Kid's post that I can't agree with is the bit about the quality of the production or editing and that's simply through not knowing enough about that to be able to comment.

Cheers

kJ

--- In just-a-minute@..., Dave B <pondydave@...> wrote:
>
> We just want to chat about Just A Minute online, with listeners from across the world, and, therefore, if we can get a thread going, its a success.........................
>
> Lee Wong

 
<<<<   6160   >>>>

Topic: Re: Nic's errors league table

Message 4 / 6
Espen KrømkeOct 27, 2011
 
 
On 27. okt. 2011 11:24, kj.naughton wrote:
 


I enjoy the discussions about how the show has changed over the years and part of that is how Nicholas has chaired it. But I remember, not too long ago, that we had repeated posts questioning his mental faculties because of one percieved mistake or inconsistency or another. That sort of thing is just not on and, even if it got lots of discussion going, I couldn't count that as a success. I do remember making similar points at the time.


I remember this too, those posts were utterly annoying and let me right away make one thing clear: I do *not* mean to bash Nick at all. And if that is how my mails are perceived then please all, accept my apologies. But to even put my posts in the same category as someone questioning his mental faculties is... Well... Pretty darn extreme.

But are we really *this* easily offended? I mean, I love Nicolas, the show would never be the same without him! The views I've expressed is merely that I do think he did a lot more errors earlier and has become more consistent and fair in his later years. And, again, I think his worst decade probably was the 90s - the decade that ironically also have some of the best shows. That is my honest, humble opinon as a fan of the series.
And I do of course know the show is edited. I've even worked for a broadcaster for almost a decade (something clitheroedkid of course could not know). But some of those rulings or inconsistency I refer to is *not* a consequence of poor editing. It just isn't. I'll have to get back to you all on that, but I will start taking notes.
Maybe i am wrong, but my clear impression is that he has gotten better since then. How's that for slandering of his name... *sigh*

Anyway, I think it is unfortunate if *only* unconditional praise is accepted on a fanlist like this, and not even very mild criticism like mine towards the consistency/fairness in Nicks rulings are accepted.
I will respect it, what's the use of discussing this alone anyway, but I think it's a bit sad.




 
<<<<   6161   >>>>

Topic: Re: Nic's errors league table

Message 5 / 6
kj.naughtonOct 27, 2011
 
 
Hi all,

...and to be equally clear, I'm not offended by anyone's recent posts so please let no-one take what I say as a criticism of them or as an attempt to stop people discussing what they like. I certainly don't want the group to be one that only talks about "good things".

If Espen read my post as comparing his with the earlier ones, then that's not what I intended and I'm sorry it came across that way. My intention was simply to disagree with Dave B and point out that not all posts with lots of replies counted as "successful". I gave the example of the mental health posts as examples of that and in no way intended to draw a link between those unfortunate posts and Espen's valid points.

So please let's not just go into "unconditional praise" and I'm all in favour of criticism. But I have boundaries of my own personal taste and I will say when I think people have crossed them - I don't expect others to agree and I don't claim to be a referee for anyone else. But no-one recently has come even close to crossing into my definition of poor taste, let alone of offending me.

But I still think that Clitheroe Kid did have some valid point. It is fair and reasonable (IMHO) to criticise Nic's performances and consistency providing that it's well informed and doesn't cross into personal attacks. And Clitheroe Kid helps to inform that criticism by pointing out that what you hear on the radio isn't what happened on stage.

Cheers

kJ

--- In just-a-minute@..., Espen Krømke <espen.kromke@...> wrote:
>
> On 27. okt. 2011 11:24, kj.naughton wrote:
>
> I remember this too, those posts were utterly annoying and let me right
> away make one thing clear: I do *not* mean to bash Nick at all. And if
> that is how my mails are perceived then please all, accept my apologies.
> But to even put my posts in the same category as someone questioning his
> mental faculties is... Well... Pretty darn extreme.

 
<<<<   6186   >>>>

Topic: Re: Nic's errors league table

Message 6 / 6
DeanOct 29, 2011
 
 
 
 
a few brief thoughts....
 
I enjoy the spirited discussions here. I do put a premium on civility and I do ask that we try to keep this a fun list and bear in mind that the person you are criticising trenchantly may be the favourite of many others. The reality is too that you can’t see the twinkle in the eye, or see the grin on the face, or hear the tone, in what someone has written. If I was kidding with friends in the pub I might well say “you must have a sick sense of humour if you think Mr X is funny”. But if I wrote here about a JAM performer “you’d have to have a sick sense of humour to find Mr X funny”... well, I can understand why many people wouldn’t catch the twinkle in the eye.
 
Just to make it clear, I am not saying anyone recently has breached the civility standard as I see it.
 
Clitheroe Kid, every time you post – and that’s far too infrequently – you give me a lot to think about. After spending too much of my time thinking about JAM, that’s a good thing.
 
And I do agree with you that some of the Nick criticism is wrong-headed and even though I am a producer I do think some of the editing is sloppy. I refer to more than a few instances in recent years of Nicholas giving the scores twice in a row, with different scores, ie,. a round being edited out poorly. This is just plain poor production work.
 
But... I doubt that we can really assign much of the criticism of Nick is because of poor editing. Much of what is edited out is Nicholas’s stumbles. An example, at the end of one of the recent Edinburgh shows, Nicholas tried four times to get through the closing credits without a stumble, and failed each time. Eventually Tilusha Ghelani said they would edit bits together. It made me wonder why they didn’t just write out what he has to say – again, a production point.
 
I think that Nicholas as a chairman is inconsistent in the interests of the show. Here’s an example again from Edinburgh. Shappi Khoprsandi was speaking, went off briefly on a tangent and then said “but that’s irrelevant”. Gyles buzzed and said “self-confessed deviation”. Now Gyles was at the time in the lead, and it was the first time Shappi had really got going. Nicholas decided it wasn’t deviation, when of course it was. Had positions been reversed and it was Shappi challenging Gyles for going off on a tangent, I think Shappi would have won the point.

 
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