Home  

Members  

Join  

Search  

Listings  

 
<<<<   775   >>>>

Topic: The Oiriginal Foursome - Kenneth Williams

Message 1 / 13
bobbyshaddoe3004Apr 6, 2007
 

 
Time now for my next bit of discussion on the original fourosme,
since my first bit didn't exactly go over well in discussing Derek
Nimmo. Perhaps this will be more of a potboiler. or something.

Time to speak on someone that many believe to have contributed to the
initial success and longevity of the series as it moved out of the
late 60's and full on into the 70's and 80's. The man with the spun
gold hair, the man who flip flopped in his views more often than
Senator John Kerry, the enormous cult who came all the way from both
King's Cross and Great Portland Street, Kenneth Williams.

I must say that certainly Kenneth added a great deal to the series,
he was lively, spontaneous, intelligent, very funny, bombastic, but
could also be rather petulant, and immature, although I wonder if
that was part of his performance on the show. In addition, he was
quite witty and very good at playing the game as well.

what was always interesting was how whenever Kenneth was doing
something very visual, it always prompted Nicholas to stop the whole
show to explain to the listeners just what Kenneth is doing, even
though more often than not we can imagine and picture in our heads
what he's up to and have no need for any play by play commentary on
Nicholas' part.

what was always a great pleasure was the fact that Kenneth seemed to
act like winning the game was always important, so he added that
level of drama to the show that many other players would bring to the
table whenever they would argue over decisions and points and
essentially trying to get their point of view across. Kenneth was
without a doubt a master of this, the way he would scream yell, bang
the table, shout at people and hurl insults at people left and right
and center.

some of the best stuff had to be whenever he would kiss Clement
Freud, as it usually displayed his camp sensibilities, and the way
his voice would change from East End cockney and working class, to a
feminine voice, to being upper crust and posh.

of course, it was Kenneth that introduced the notion of elongating
words and vowels in order to get fewer words into the time he was
speaking, in order to get to the end of the seconds without actually
hesitating. it seemed to be a rather borderline issue at times,
because he would stretch words out beyond the point of hesitation and
rarely would be penalized for it, but yet when other people did it at
the time, they'd be penalized for hesitation, which wasn't entirely
fair to let Kenneth get away with that sort of thing.

In fact, I remember once in an episode, Andree Melly challenged him
for talking slowly, got a huge laugh from it, but not a bonus point.
Then later on in the program, Kenneth challenges her for speaking
slowly, and Nicholas then says 'If I take the subject away from
Andree for speaking slowly, can I take it away from you the next
time' and Kenneth screams out 'NO NO NO!!!'

another one of Kenneth's particular quirks would often be his
behavior towards women on the show, he would go on this chauvinistic
tack of shouting and screaming at women, sometimes for being stupid
in whatever it was they were saying on a subject, usually this was
directed at Aimi MacDonald.

however, this was usually done only in the context of generating
humor, because it was not well known that Kenneth actually had a
great love for the women that came on the show. Was great friends
with Sheila Hancock, Andree Melly and Aimi MacDonald, and also I
believe Geraldine Jones, possibly the only woman aside from Elaine
Stritch that he never abused. in fact, according to my friend Dean,
Kenneth actually had considered marriage to a woman several times
because of a great desire to have children.

it's a shame that wasn't to be, I can only imagine a Kenneth Williams
Jr. or even a daughter named Cleo perhaps carrying on his wonderful
legacy.

amongst the man's other credits, well we all know he started off
doing Hancock's Half Hour' with Tony Hancock, but was fired because
of professional jealousy. then of course working on 'Beyond Our Ken'
and 'Round The Horne' with the Kenneth Horne Troupe, consisting of
Kenneth Horne, Betty Marsden, Bill Pertwee and another gentleman
who's name I can't seem to recall at the moment.

I remember hearing several episodes of 'Round the Horne' and always
thought that Kenneth worked rather well alongside these incredible
actors, as Kenneth brought to life several memorable characters.
Amongst my favorites were definitely J. Peasemold Gruntfuttock, folk
singer Rambling Syd Rumpo and of course Sandy of 'Julian & Sandy'.

the amazing thing is, although he is also well known for all
the 'Carry On' films he did, I never saw any of them. so I can't
comment on the films that were also a huge part of Ken's repetoire.

it was sad to hear him slowly deteriorate during the late 80's on the
program, not even mustering the energy to say much of anything during
most shows, and to hear about his passing, it was a definite blow to
the show. although, his influence and legacy can still be heard in
the forms of such camp individuals as Graham Norton, Julian Clary and
Chris Neil.

I'll now open the floor to anyone else that wishes to comment.

 
<<<<   787   >>>>

Topic: Re: The Oiriginal Foursome - Kenneth Williams

Message 2 / 13
Dean BedfordApr 9, 2007
 

 
On Saturday, April 7, 2007, at 05:20 AM, bobbyshaddoe3004 wrote:

> however, this was usually done only in the context of generating
> humor, because it was not well known that Kenneth actually had a
> great love for the women that came on the show. Was great friends
> with Sheila Hancock, Andree Melly and Aimi MacDonald, and also I
> believe Geraldine Jones, possibly the only woman aside from Elaine
> Stritch that he never abused.

I think probably only Sheila, Miriam Margolyes and Miriam Karlin were
friends outside the show, especially the first two.

It's always hard to know Kenneth's true feelings about things as they
changed so violently almost day to day. But a friend of mine once walked
with Kenneth after a recording and asked him his views about the show
and the other performers and found him complimentary about most aspects.

The exception was the subject of Aimi Macdonald. When Keith mentioned
her, Kenneth screwed up his face in disgust, had a quick look around to
see if he could be overheard by anyone and whispered "she's a stupid
bitch!"

 
<<<<   793   >>>>

Topic: Re: The Oiriginal Foursome - Kenneth Williams

Message 3 / 13
Robert TorresApr 10, 2007
 

 
my goodness, such harshness, well at least now we know his own antagonism towards Aimi is genuine.  I can't believe he felt that strongly about her, doesn't seem right ya know, she added such great comedic value to the program, which is really what its all about, I guess he really bought into Aimi's dumb blonde act. 

Dean Bedford <dbedford@...> wrote:

On Saturday, April 7, 2007, at 05:20 AM, bobbyshaddoe3004 wrote:

> however, this was usually done only in the context of generating
> humor, because it was not well known that Kenneth actually had a
> great love for the women that came on the show. Was great friends
> with Sheila Hancock, Andree Melly and Aimi MacDonald, and also I
> believe Geraldine Jones, possibly the only woman aside from Elaine
> Stritch that he never abused.

I think probably only Sheila, Miriam Margolyes and Miriam Karlin were
friends outside the show, especially the first two.

It's always hard to know Kenneth's true feelings about things as they
changed so violently almost day to day. But a friend of mine once walked
with Kenneth after a recording and asked him his views about the show
and the other performers and found him complimentary about most aspects.

The exception was the subject of Aimi Macdonald. When Keith mentioned
her, Kenneth screwed up his face in disgust, had a quick look around to
see if he could be overheard by anyone and whispered "she's a stupid
bitch!"

---

Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.

 
<<<<   796   >>>>

Topic: Re: The Oiriginal Foursome - Kenneth Williams

Message 4 / 13
Vicki WalkerApr 10, 2007
 

 
Clement's autobiography "Freud Ego" says Kenneth hated Wendy Richard. What was that all about? They sounded civil enough to each other in their joint JAM appearance.

---

Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.

 
<<<<   797   >>>>

Topic: Re: The Oiriginal Foursome - Kenneth Williams

Message 5 / 13
Robert TorresApr 10, 2007
 

 
wow, that's a shocker that comes right out of left field. 

Vicki Walker <juliajellicoe@...> wrote:

Clement's autobiography "Freud Ego" says Kenneth hated Wendy Richard. What was that all about? They sounded civil enough to each other in their joint JAM appearance.

---

Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.

---

Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
always stay connected to friends.

 
<<<<   801   >>>>

Topic: Re: The Oiriginal Foursome - Kenneth Williams

Message 6 / 13
Dean BedfordApr 11, 2007
 

 
On Wednesday, April 11, 2007, at 06:53 AM, Vicki Walker wrote:

> Clement's autobiography "Freud Ego" says Kenneth hated Wendy Richard.
> What was that all about? They sounded civil enough to each other in
> their joint JAM appearance.

I think he was just about anti-anyone he didnt know by that point

 
<<<<   802   >>>>

Topic: Re: The Oiriginal Foursome - Kenneth Williams

Message 7 / 13
DaveApr 11, 2007
 

 
If you catch the recent BBC documentaries and drama/documentary on
Kenneth Williams it soon becomes apparent what this was all about.

Clement also remarks that he is less than fond of Nicholas Parsons
and mocks his lack of talent and other things. I'm not sure how
tongue-in-cheek this is, if at all.

How civil the players appear to each other is testament to how
professional the show is, despite its apparent near-anarchy
and bumbling chairmanship.

I would recommend Clement's autobiography 'Ego' to anyone, I just re-
read it and it was even funnier the second time around. Its a great
shame it ends in the 70s at the point he is elected to parliament
because I for one would have loved to hear more about his time in,
and thoughts on, parliament - as well as much more about JAM as his
references to Just A Minute are but in passing apart from a couple
of pages.

Also, any fan reading his description of the early years of JAM and
how it all came together will soon realise that his memory (not to
mention his [lack of] research is far from perfect).
EG. "After a year the team settled down to Derek nimmo, Peter Jones,
me and one woman, Two years in, Kenneth Williams became a regular
member and it all changed." While the latter part about KW is
debateable, PJ didn't appear until series 6 a whole four years after
the first series.....

Funny how we all refer to "the original foursome" isn't it?

--- In just-a-minute@..., Vicki Walker
<juliajellicoe@...> wrote:

>
> Clement's autobiography "Freud Ego" says Kenneth hated Wendy

Richard. What was that all about? They sounded civil enough to each
other in their joint JAM appearance.

>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
> Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.
>

 
<<<<   803   >>>>

Topic: Re: The Oiriginal Foursome - Kenneth Williams

Message 8 / 13
lindaApr 12, 2007
 

 
--- In just-a-minute@..., Robert Torres
<bobbyshaddoe3004@...> wrote:
my goodness, such harshness, well at least now we know his own
antagonism towards Aimi is genuine. I can't believe he felt that
strongly about her, doesn't seem right ya know, she added such great
comedic value to the program, which is really what its all about, I
guess he really bought into Aimi's dumb blonde act


if you ever have a chance robert look for the kenneth williams
diaries i think it is edit by russel davies . i have not read all of
the book as i came across it in a local library but in the bits i have
you'll soon see sadly he had not got very many good things to say
about anyone . he comes acorss as a very frustrated man . serious and
highly inteligent yet stuck as a comedy performer , frustared about
his sexuality . i think he was a very complex man .

cheers
Linda

 
<<<<   804   >>>>

Topic: Re: The Oiriginal Foursome - Kenneth Williams

Message 9 / 13
Gregory AugerApr 12, 2007
 

 
Well I've ordered the book below from my local library - I should be able to tell you about it in a couple of wekks.

Synopsis
For more than 40 years broadcaster and comedian Kenneth Williams kept a journal of his experiences - this book is a one-volume selection of these diaries. In addition to offering conclusive evidence as to the nature of Williams' death in 1988, the diaries reveal a side to his character that many suspected but only few understood. The diaries look at his own tortured sexuality, his relationship with Louie his mother, his thoughts on religion and his verdicts on friends and colleagues such as Noel Coward, Tony Hancock, Sheila Hancock, Maggie Smith and Joe Orton.

On 12/04/07, linda <irishmanufan@...> wrote:

--- In just-a-minute@..., Robert Torres
<bobbyshaddoe3004@...> wrote:
my goodness, such harshness, well at least now we know his own
antagonism towards Aimi is genuine. I can't believe he felt that
strongly about her, doesn't seem right ya know, she added such great
comedic value to the program, which is really what its all about, I
guess he really bought into Aimi's dumb blonde act

if you ever have a chance robert look for the kenneth williams
diaries i think it is edit by russel davies . i have not read all of
the book as i came across it in a local library but in the bits i have
you'll soon see sadly he had not got very many good things to say
about anyone . he comes acorss as a very frustrated man . serious and
highly inteligent yet stuck as a comedy performer , frustared about
his sexuality . i think he was a very complex man .

cheers
Linda

 
<<<<   805   >>>>

Topic: Re: The Oiriginal Foursome - Kenneth Williams

Message 10 / 13
SeDi_98Apr 12, 2007
 

 
I'd say the Kenneth Williams Diaries are required reading for anyone
who enjoys his work. It does give a good window into his mind, if a
dark one. Still, there are glimmers of positive traits in there. His
generosity is often breathtaking, for instance.

I have been told that the Kenneth Williams Letters is very good too
(Russell Davies editor again), but I've not been able to track down a
copy yet. Apparently that paints him in quite a different light. It
seems he was much friendlier and wittier in his correspondence than
his diary. But then again, I haven't read it myself yet!

Oh, one other thing about the diaries: I read them shortly after
reading the Orton Diaries (edited by John Lahr). Orton and Williams
were close friends and the two diaries do provide interesting
counterpoints on the days they were together. Obviously no JAM
references in that one, but some good insights and photos of Kenneth
Williams the man. I would say, though, that the Orton Diaries can get
very graphic, and are not for the easily-offended.

--Darren

--- In just-a-minute@..., "Gregory Auger"
<gregory.auger@...> wrote:

>
> Well I've ordered the book below from my local library - I should be

able to

> tell you about it in a couple of wekks.*

 
<<<<   806   >>>>

Topic: Re: The Oiriginal Foursome - Kenneth Williams

Message 11 / 13
Robert TorresApr 12, 2007
 

 

--- In just-a-minute@ yahoogroups. com, Robert Torres
<bobbyshaddoe3004@ ...> wrote:
my goodness, such harshness, well at least now we know his own
antagonism towards Aimi is genuine. I can't believe he felt that
strongly about her, doesn't seem right ya know, she added such great
comedic value to the program, which is really what its all about, I
guess he really bought into Aimi's dumb blonde act

if you ever have a chance robert look for the kenneth williams
diaries i think it is edit by russel davies . i have not read all of
the book as i came across it in a local library but in the bits i have
you'll soon see sadly he had not got very many good things to say
about anyone . he comes acorss as a very frustrated man . serious and
highly inteligent yet stuck as a comedy performer , frustared about
his sexuality . i think he was a very complex man .

cheers
Linda

---

Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.

 
<<<<   807   >>>>

Topic: Re: The Oiriginal Foursome - Kenneth Williams

Message 12 / 13
Gregory AugerApr 12, 2007
 

 
I am really lucky that I live in a big city and we have a big library service that gets lots of money and so has lots of books. You can search the massive range of things at http://library.southampton.gov.uk/cgi-bin/vps2.5_viewpoint.sh

 
<<<<   810   >>>>

Topic: Re: The Oiriginal Foursome - Kenneth Williams

Message 13 / 13
Dean BedfordApr 13, 2007
 

 
On Thursday, April 12, 2007, at 10:52 PM, SeDi_98 wrote:

> I'd say the Kenneth Williams Diaries are required reading for anyone
> who enjoys his work. It does give a good window into his mind, if a
> dark one. Still, there are glimmers of positive traits in there. His
> generosity is often breathtaking, for instance.
>
> I have been told that the Kenneth Williams Letters is very good too
> (Russell Davies editor again), but I've not been able to track down a
> copy yet. Apparently that paints him in quite a different light. It
> seems he was much friendlier and wittier in his correspondence than
> his diary. But then again, I haven't read it myself yet!
>
> Oh, one other thing about the diaries: I read them shortly after
> reading the Orton Diaries (edited by John Lahr). Orton and Williams
> were close friends and the two diaries do provide interesting
> counterpoints on the days they were together. Obviously no JAM
> references in that one, but some good insights and photos of Kenneth
> Williams the man. I would say, though, that the Orton Diaries can get
> very graphic, and are not for the easily-offended.
>
> --Darren

The letters are written to amuse and yes they're more chatty and
friendly though there's still perhaps the biggest denunciation of
Nicholas that I've seen from Kenneth contained among them...